The Values and Ideals Represented by Twilight?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kita on June 15, 2009 at 9:03am

I don't understand why a new cult--and yes, this is essentially a cult (whether you want it to be or not)--is needed to discuss cliche or really circumstancial ideals.

Permalink Reply by Faith Evanescent on August 14, 2009 at 2:46pm

Jordan, (And other TwiFans)
Personally, I am sorry that you feel this way. Everyone is entitled to their opinion: ergo, I wish to air mine.
Before I begin, however, I will state plainly. I am not, nor ever will be, a fan of Twilight, so any threats or comments or anything of the kind will not go down well. I used to like the series, but in the same way you like your baby cousin. Cute, but not something you want to be around all the time. But is is not because of this that I am against Twilight as a religion. It is because I find the subjects expressed in Twilight hard to line up with the values you place on them. Because I find it hard to believe that fiction, especially pop fiction, is deserving of such constant belief and love (Especially since there are other books of higher literary acclaim out there that deserve it). And because, lastly, that it is completely creepy.

With that said -I hope it was the closest I will get to anger- here is my opinion.

I know you have heard all the same arguments five thousand times, and yet I get the feeling that most Twilight fans do not take them into consideration. Let's take the 'true love' theme. Twilight -and Ms. Meyer- say that you will meet the love of your life, know that they are the love of your life, and give up friends, family, and even your own humanity to be with them. Now, while some my find this true, to be frank I find it terrifying. I cannot imagine someone who would fall so head-over-heels in love that they would choose to leave everything they knew to be with the one they loved. I cannot imagine being so in love that I would wait for months, years even, for him to return, or to try to kill myself just to hear his voice.
Bella seems not to consider others' feelings when making any decisions: how would you feel if your daughter, only daughter, left you at eighteen to become a vampire? You may say "Sure, whatever makes her happy", but how could Bella be so self-centered, so ego-centric as to imagine that no-one would mourn her passing, or that she should jump of a cliff just to hear Edward's voice again? Such suicidal apathetic behaviour is surely not something we want to idolise?

Never giving up is certainly an aspect of the series that Meyer does achieve. Naturally, this is a very good, noble ambition. And yet we have examples in which they are only too ready to give up. Bella: Attempts suicide (or at least, suicidal feats) at 'loss' of Edward. Edward: attempts suicide at 'loss' of Bella. Does this sound like not giving up? Does this not sound like each has lost hope of life beyond the other? (And if you are going to pull the 'true love' card on me, if both would want the other to go on living after their deaths, why are they so keen to deny it?) Forgive me for stating otherwise, but it is so. I refuse to believe that anyone could idolise a novel in which death is so heavily relied upon as a token of love.
I only wish that Bella and Edward had more personality, that they actually shared interests, opinions, and actually built up to their love instead of... Well, let's face it. Edward fell in love with Bella because he liked her smell. I dare anyone to tell me otherwise.

I could go on for hours. In the past, I have. But I suppose you'll have to be content with those two statements. I do look forward to your responses.

It is a confusing position at which I must stand: allowing everyone to freedom of speech, trying not to offend, and yet burning inside is still the one furious question that words could never truly vocalise. Why?
Why make this into a religion, why this novel? Why not any other book: 'Paradise Lost', 'Little Women', or 'A Christmas Carol'? They too show the nature of the themes you wish to idolise: love, the triumph of goodness, never giving up, and do so in a far more elegant, realistic, truthful and timeless manner.
Why are they not the subject of such adoration?
Please, if any of you can give me a truthful answer.
Answer me now.

Permalink Reply by Faith Evanescent on August 26, 2009 at 11:54pm

This is true.
However, I would love to hear your personal opinions on why you believe Twilight to be a good basis for religion, and equally what it was that you enjoyed most in the series. Feel free to answer if you wish :)

Permalink Reply by Crymzen on August 31, 2009 at 12:57pm

Wow! Such anger here. First I ask, why join Cullenism if you feel this way? This is just a book, a story that SM wrote because she felt love for it & her characters. Chill out. I fell in love w/it & her characters like so many others. It's not a story about a pedafile or suicide or selfishness. If anything it's about "selflessness". Bella is always the heroine that is looking out for everyone elses welfare. My take on it is, it's about SM's ideas of her "supernatural" vampires & true love & heartache. That love that is so strong that it's painful & you don't want to live w/out that person. I believe that when you truly love someone you give them all of yourself. Of course you still love your family but in the end it's just the two of you. You create your own little world & nothing can penetrate that. And we can't forget what young love is like. So much more painful & heart wrenching. Edwards age vs. Bella's: It's been known in most vampire stories that vampires obviously live forever so they have many mates through their lives regardless of their mates age(age doesn't mean anything to vampires). Bella only sees him as the "17" yr old that he was stuck in time as when he was changed. He's still a virgin like her & hasn't experienced love before, so their in this together. And when she's changed, age doesn't matter anymore. Yes, Edwards suicide attempt was pretty intense but atleast being a vampire & not human SM had him trying to die by acting out so the Vulturi would notice & finish him off. This may be the only thing that I thought was risky putting in the story but it worked. It showed his devotion to her. As far as Bella pushing away her family & friends & turning into a zombie & doing reckless things to hear Edwards warnings, we all deal w/depression in different ways. I can relate to this. I guess it's easy for me to believe in the religion of Cullenism because I feel safe w/these books. And I'm a sucker for true love if you can't tell. Sorry my views are a little scattered, I have a hard time writing it all down, I just have so much to say. I'm sure there are so many other books that people could suggest for a religion over TW but then answer me this question, why are so many people addicted to these books? I agree it is a cult following & I'm addicted! I would definetely let my kids read this when their teens. And I would let them know that I'm there for support & Q & A's when needed. Love & pain are real life experiences that we can't avoid. Personally, I'm not into God so that's probably why Cullenism is easy for me to except. I understand everyone has their own views & this is mine & I'm stickin' to it.

Permalink Reply by Faith Evanescent on October 7, 2009 at 1:26am

((Amen to Kita's post!))

Yeah, I guess I'm angry XD. I'm afraid Twilight happens to be the only topic I've ever felt so strongly about, and I will admit to you that it continually frustrates me. As to your second question, I have not joined 'Cullenism'. It's a terrifying religion, and the idea of worshipping book characters, to be frank, is creepy to me. I merely joined this site to have a coherent, logical explanation in an attempt to de-convert the cultists and to find out what makes this book such a source of belief and shelter.

Aren't vampires generally elitists? Most books imply that vampires do not take mates outside of their species, and if they do, it is usually the subject of the book. Of course, what do I know? XD

OK. So you are a fan of Twilight because it is a story of true love, because it is a story of selflessness and of young love? As long as you're happy, there's nothing I can say to change that. I'm just here because I enjoy the discussion!
You've heard my views: personally, the book's popularity is a shock to me. I just wish that Twilight were better written: then maybe I could find it deserving of the praise it is showered with.

I know some friends who have a love such as you describe, and having seen that, I cannot assimilate that with the two-dimensional affection shown in Ms. Meyer's books. If Bella is 'selfless', why does she only ever think of herself in the books? Sure, there are whole chapters on wondering if she's hurt a friend and feeling bad for herself and whatnot. Sure, there are chapters describing her love for Edward. But honestly, it is a love based on superficial feelings alone, and while she worries about if she's hurt someone, the way in which these feelings are represented I have to say I find impossible to associate with love or selflessness. And while this may remind of initial affections and young love, their 'true love' is not based on any lasting feeling or mutual opinion. There is nowhere in the story in which they actually sit down and laugh together! in the books, I don't recall learning so much as Edward's favourite colour. They never speak, just stare into each other's eyes: as such, I believe the whole book is about a crush, not a true -nor first- love.

The example you've mentioned does nothing to persuade me otherwise, I'm afraid. Isn't this each of them giving up? How devoted was Edward, really, if at the first guess of Bella's death that he were to go off and attempt suicide? The sentiment is romantic enough -and had Bella actually died, perhaps I would have been able to appreciate it the more. But the fact remains that Bella did not die, and Edward believes, without even seeing her body, going to her funeral, that she is dead. He accepts on two pieces of evidence, without ever outright asking, that his love is dead. If he truly loved her, I think the first stange would be denial. We all know, even if we haven't experienced it ourselves, that when someone you love dies, at first you can't believe it. All you want to do is run back to them, throw yourself into their arms and rock them, stroking their hair until that horrible, horrible fact has been utterly refuted. And if they are not there to hold, you need somewhere safe to just sit and cry.

No, it's not a story about a pedophile. But in the end, that's what Jacob ends up being, isn't it? I mean, do you approve the idea of a 16-year-old falling in love with someone barely a month old? In spite of how old she appears, -which Ms. Meyer broke the laws of her own universe in creating, might I add- I find the idea disturbing.

My answer to your question is based -as all of this post is, of course!- based solely on personal opinion. Twilight is only popular because Ms. Meyer has targetted an audience vulnerable to the combined effects of beauty, over-used mythology, and love. I can only see her story-lines and characters as clichés and cardboard-cutouts, yet it is this kind of writing that appeals so strongly to her target audience. Young girls, as we all know, being them, are suseptible to this kind of novel: the love-story. And when the story sky-rockets to fame, it matters not whether the story is good or bad, just that it's being read. (This can go for any love story, so in spite of my bias, please don't believe this is only applicable to Twilight! Many books I have read and enjoyed go by this same template.)

No problem: it's quite annoying trying to keep your ideas in check, eh? XD.
Can I ask why you chose to believe in Twilight as a religion? What does it offer? Personally, I'm in favour of evolution, and though I don't want to turn this into a religious debate, I'm curious ^^;

Permalink Reply by Faith Evanescent on October 25, 2009 at 2:57am

Excellent, another opposing argument! :D Hello.
I'm truly sorry about any cruel suggestions! I certainly did not attempt to suggest anything of the kind about Twilight's readers; I will attempt to curb the anger I feel about the books from tarnishing its readers in future. Again, truly sorry! I will keep your words in mind.

Fair enough; those who follow Cullenism certainly have a right to their own choices and, certainly, opinions!
I, as you know, merely hope that the religion is a phase.
The idea of worshipping book characters, as the followers whose opinions I have read profess to do, is something I simply cannot reconcile with, and I cannot let the topic lie.

I appreciate that it was her own idea, but why -at my school at least- is there suddenly an influx of girls whose only knowledge of vampires is sparkles and blood-drinking? Ok, so there's nothing wrong with this; I'm being pedantic. Still, the opinions on a sparkling vampire can be found on any cyber street-corner. I find the stories with more classical vampires a far more enticing read, as do my friends and most people I know. Perhaps that just says something about my associations; I'll leave that for you to decide.

I won't go any further on my opinion of the realism of the storyline; that has been made abundantly clear.

Precisely! Mythological creatures are the crème de la crème of fiction, and I am not going to dispute that one. However. My family, friends and classmates mostly read books with vampires, werewolves and fae because they love the more realistic, historical genres... Or at least, vampire stories that sound as if the author has put thought into their backgrounds. Before you jump down my throat some more, allow me to clarify. Most authors are safe in their vampire genres because they go along with the traditional lines -ancient vampire covens, first blood-drinkers evolving into vampires, etcetera. However, sparkly vampires? Perhaps I can understand Ms. Meyer finding this attractive... But I would like some kind of reasoning. Before the Cullens and company, I'm not exactly sure I could interview anyone off the street and find a fantasy about a sparkling man.
The Peeps books are a good example of mythology reconciled with modern science; Scott Westerfeld has obviously done his homework, put together a wonderful storyline and a world of great fiction. Wicked Lovely, Blood and Chocolate... All of these could be easily slotted into the same genre as Twilight, and I felt all of these had better storylines, better love-tales, more life to them than I felt in one ounce of Twilight. Beautiful stories. (Pardon the various examples; I know there are probably too many, and I want to stop any labels of name-dropping where they sit.)
Merissa Marr's Wicked Lovely series is the closest example. Her writing achieves all the poetry that Ms. Meyer might have been trying to immitate: take this quote. “Seth slid a hand around her waist and kissed her like she was air and he was suffocating.” Now compare that to five synonyms for 'sparkle' per page, and you will see what I mean.

Yet people have thought to place Twilight above popular, critically-acclaimed and other good fiction. I do feel that Twilight is undeserving of praise; that's precisely why I wish to debate this with you. And the series has been rated above other books- more than those I have listed. (Perhaps it's that there seems to be a common opinion that there are few good teen books out there currently. Word of mouth helps a book considerably.)

Your note is fair :).

Ah, definitions. The one I'm familiar with seems to disagree... I always assumed that 'cliché' was an overused stereotype, not necesarrily just 'common'. I've only known it used to describe the 'Romeo and Juliet' story-lines, or of your classic stereotypes and other ideas that are becoming unoriginal. Even popular phrases are classified as clichés. Again, I have to agree with Kita's original comment; those ideals expressed by Twilight can be found in any other book. Sure, they don't have to specifically apply to a werewolf or vampire -that's the point of themes; removing them from context and turning them into a sort of 'rule', like in Maths.

Second of all: I'm a little concerned that you assume I have not read the books. I have, in fact, read them, and I could probably find you examples for my statements... if I had a copy nearby. It's been at least six months since I read the first book -you may have to forgive my hazy memory.
The only excerpts I can recall of them talking was a) when Edward took Bella out to dinner, and b) when Bella was at Edward's house. Even then, I seem to recall most of the conversation pertaining to Edward's vampirism and Bella's conjecture. They have had few other, non-vampire conversations throughout the four books.
Edward's questions about Bella's life were only because he could not read her mind. If he could, he would not have even been drawn to her in the first place; the only reason he looks at her in the first place is -I think- because he listens to thoughts that contain Bella, but cannot hear hers. All his questions after that, all his curiosity, is because he cannot hear what she is thinking. If he'd heard her thoughts, he might have sat at the table with the other Cullens, listening to her thoughts, but not really noticing anything untoward about her until science... And even then, being able to read her thoughts, no conversation would have been necesarry. You note that, up until Bella, Jessica's dialogue tells us that the Cullens never took any interest in the humans. Bella's uniqueness was the turning point, the unknown variable. Without it, the rest of the calculations are null.
Their only other topics were music, pretty much. Don't get me wrong, music is an amazing topic, but their discussions hardly covered in a depth that could merit a relationship based on it. They were an excellent starting point, they truly were. And all through the books, I was thinking 'When is Bella going to think about something that would have been interesting without Edward being a vampire.' I mean, really. They have a few conversations about favourite music, leading to Edward playing for Bella and eventually burning her a CD. If you can give me any examples of them getting to know each other -even Bella's thoughts on the intimate conversations, though preferrably not dappled with 'vampire' and 'gorgeous topaz eyes'- then I might be a little happier. But if such references weren't picked up the first two times around, I doubt a third reading will improve matters.

I'm sorry, but I would rather read a second-by-second account than accept a book based on a relationship that doesn't exist. Short of the aforementioned -and of course, any examples later uncovered!-... well, I'm skeptical to say the least.
No, they don't give an account-per-second... However, I know many books that focus on points like character or relationship development.

If you won't object to my standing on the other side of the fence for a moment: Yep. Those questions are simply the bane of anyone's existence, and having to justify an opinion to a teacher, for example, is simply annoying. But the idea of a good book, a really good book, is to take the inexplicable and make it universal, make it beautiful and accessable to those who do not know it. Anyone who has read Before I Die will know what I'm talking about.
And you're right again: I cannot simply sit back and watch people enjoy this book -otherwise why would I be here? And to be honest, would you be arguing with me if I did? I can't make my argument absolutely clear; on the one hand, I'm really enjoying debating with you, but on the other hand, I'm enjoying hearing your opinions, and they are -of course!- perfect.

Yes, Edward should have been more rational. Passionate he may be, but I found the whole suicidal statement to reek of melodrama: there was nothing keeping Edward from committing suicide before Bella's 'death' and before he met her, and yet his mind was always on 'I'm a monster, Bella'. He killed human beings! If anyone as sensitive and passionate as Edward is claimed to be can live through that -and we know that had an effect on him, because of the constant 'monster' and 'shouldn't be with me' lines. The murder of human beings is a hard thing for the sane and human to live through! If he lived through that, with his morality intact, centuries of guilt would have been the worst he'd known before meeting Bella. What stopped him committing suicide then? If I had more time, I'd work this argument further, but it's getting late; I'll leave you to interpret this as you will.

In answer to your question about the possibility of true love: why read about true love when the lovers have nothing in common but a secret? It makes for a very dull read, hence nullifying any appreciation.

I note you don't try to refute the comment on Jacob's pedophilia, first of all.
Second, why skip through a book, no matter what happens in it? And second, it's probably quite hard to argue about something, when it hasn't been read first-hand. I read the books to make up my own decisions: it wouldn't have been fair to accept someone else's experiences and not read it for myself.

I'm pretty sure that very few people feel comfortable with pedophilia.
Does the world at large feel comfortable with the potential rape of newborns?!

I'm simply here to argue the other case. I saw this thread, and it was the reason I signed up: Kita asked for an opinion, and I'm only too happy to add the other side.
As is frequently expressed throughout this thread, we all give others the right to enjoy what they want to enjoy, and to continue in whatever train of thought they choose. But because I'm sticking with this thread for the debate, sleeping dogs are not yet left to lie. Please, continue the thread! :D

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After all that, I hope you won't take this comment as insincere.
I'm glad you said that about accepting it for its flaws. I have read too many, although possibly biased, rants about why the Antis should love Twilight. If they'd just started with that argument, however, most of the pro-Twilight arguments would have been stopped in their tracks: thank-you.

(A side note of my own: I'm a 'she' :))